As It Happens

00:00 All your favorite CBC Podcasts are now available on YouTube. The best in award-winning true crime investigations, hilarious comedies, vibrant pop culture conversations, and even more audio series are all available on CBC Podcasts' YouTube channel. You'll also find exclusive video first episodes, YouTube shorts, and behind-the-scenes content from our hosts and producers that you can't find anywhere else. So if YouTube is your go-to source for podcasts, just search CBC Podcasts and hit subscribe, and you'll never miss the latest updates. 00:30 This is a CBC Podcast. 00:33 Hello, I'm Saroja Coelho, in for Neil Cooksal. 00:36 Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens. 00:49 Tonight, solar flare. As a rare total solar eclipse temporarily blots out the sun, we hear from a hotel owner in Iceland who's awed by the sight and the hundreds of tourists who've come to see it. 01:02 Showing him the ambassador. Tens of thousands of Canadians have signed a petition urging Prime Minister Mark Carney to declare U.S. Ambassador Pete Hoekstra persona non grata and officially send him packing. 01:16 Pillars and support. Monday's earthquake in Colombia has left hundreds dead or injured. A resident in one of the hardest hit cities describes the destruction and his efforts to help rescue survivors. 01:29 Down the tubes. A group looking for a relaxing float downstream wind up lost in marshlands for three days. We hear from a conservation officer who helped rescue them. 01:41 Civil Serpent. A teenager in Arkansas was warming up for football practice when he discovered an unexpected surprise in his helmet, a two-foot-long venomous snake. 01:53 And changing our minds about theirs. A researcher who peeked inside the Dodo's Dome explains why she thinks the long-extinct bird may be smarter than previously thought. As it happens, the Wednesday edition, radio that's never happened. at a loss for birds. 02:27 Volcanoes, glaciers, lava cakes, black sand beaches, there are plenty of reasons to flock to Iceland. But today, thousands of visitors were in the country's westernmost region to witness another phenomenon, the country's first total solar eclipse since 1954. 02:48 Towns and authorities there have been preparing for the influx of people from all over for months. And it's a moment Birna Miet Arlodotr has been waiting for. She's the owner of Hotel Brejdevik, which is surrounded by camping grounds and ideally situated to experience the event. We reached Ms. Arlodotr there earlier today. 03:12 Birna, we're reaching you just moments before the totality is set to take place. Can you believe that this day is finally here? 03:22 No, I can't believe it. It's amazing. 03:26 I wish you were here and see all the people, everything. It's fantastic. 03:31 I'd love to hear more about what's right in front of you right now. What are you seeing? 03:36 If I look around to the beach, to the mountains... There is people everywhere. 03:43 Everywhere. 03:46 But we've been having very good weather last days and today. But exactly now, a cloud came in front of us. 03:58 So we are a little bit disappointed. 04:01 But still, we have a few minutes to blow it away. It's warm and it's not raining, but it's just now... getting more and more cloudy. 04:12 And how many people are there? You said you can see them everywhere, from the beach to the mountains. How many would you say are there with you? 04:19 I think it could be 1,000, 1,500. We are not quite sure. We took a picture from a drone and later on we will try to count them and see how many people. 04:36 What does it compare to this time last year? 04:41 It's totally different. It's nothing alike. Most of the time on the campground, we have, if it's a very good day, we have maybe 100 people. But now, I don't know. 04:55 How do you organize so many people on that campground? 05:00 Usually we have half a hectare camping ground, but now it's about nine hectares. Because we were farmers before, so we have a lot of fields. 05:11 And we just cut the grass and my husband built a lot of toilets. 05:18 Yes. Virna, have you had a single moment to sit down since you woke up this morning? 05:23 No. And I don't need to. 05:27 Because we need to take care of... We have a large group of rescue teams, ambulance doctors... 05:35 police. So we try to take care of them, feed them, and also the guests. So we sit down at the end of September. 05:46 What kind of food are you serving? Do you have everything you need for all those people? 05:50 Yes. So we have like Icelandic fish stew, lamb stew, soups, Mediterranean dishes. So we are quick to serve. 06:00 How long have you been preparing for this total solar eclipse? 06:05 We knew about it like 14 years ago. 06:08 But we just started to think a little bit last winter. And then we started to prepare in April or something. 06:18 So lots and lots of work through this. 06:19 It's getting darker and darker. 06:21 It is right now. Yes, describe to me what you're seeing, Birna. I'd love to try and imagine myself there with you. 06:26 No, I'm talking to you. Tell me a little bit. 06:29 It's getting darker. There is a tiny hole. 06:34 Yeah, they want me to shut up. 06:37 I need to go somewhere else. 06:39 It's getting darker and darker. And there is a little hole. 06:43 And I'm talking too loud because everybody's hissing at me. 06:47 Oh my gosh, it's getting darker. 06:50 Oh my gosh. 06:52 Oh my gosh. 06:55 Oh. 06:57 Oh. 06:58 It's getting quick now. 07:00 It's like we have wolves around us. 07:04 I'm walking a lot when I talk. 07:09 I wish you could see it. Oh, my gosh. 07:14 People are screaming. Oh, I forgot to turn off the light on the hotel. 07:19 I'm going to see if I can turn off the lights. 07:23 Because the lights on the hotel are ruined. 07:27 Everything's... 07:31 Is the darkness like the middle of the night, or is it different from when the sun goes down? 07:36 I turned off the light, but it's not totally dark, but it's getting darker and darker. 07:45 Can you hear the screaming? 07:47 No. I think the phone won't pick it up, but I'm so glad you're telling me about it. I'm loving all of the description of what you're seeing and feeling and hearing. 07:55 This is... And the colors... Over the sea is like the evening sun. Now it's getting lighter and lighter. 08:10 I can hear people talking around you. What are they saying? 08:14 Everybody's just stoned. They are like... And now it's getting brighter and brighter. This was amazing. 08:25 How do you feel right now, Birna? 08:28 I feel happy because what we organized is doing well. 08:35 Me and my husband, we've never been organizing anything like that before. 08:40 And to have all these people... 08:44 And everything is doing so fine, except last night, because everybody needs to go to a shower and we run out of water. 08:56 And that was a little bit stressful. But my husband is amazing and he could fix it. 09:06 But it's amazing and people are so happy and everybody here is very, very, very happy. 09:12 I can't believe we got to experience this with you. You've described it all so beautifully. Did it meet all your expectations? Is it what you imagined? 09:22 Yes, it did. I thought, though, it would be more dark. 09:26 I thought it would be totally, totally dark. 09:29 We're so grateful to be able to spend the time with you. What will you do for the rest of the day? 09:33 I will start to bake for breakfast. 09:38 The work continues. 09:40 Yes, she does. It's like my husband said to my daughter that this is what she needs, action, action. 09:48 I have my family, my kids have all moved away, but they all came. So I'm grateful for my family, for my friends, everybody that helped me make this. 10:03 Happened like it did today. 10:06 Well, thank you so much for letting us experience this magic with you. It's been absolutely amazing. You know, Birna, I have chills just listening to you describe it. I feel like I saw it myself. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye-bye. Thank you. 10:23 Bye. 10:25 Birna Miet Arludotl is the owner of Hotel Bredovic in Iceland. That's where we reached her. 10:42 More than 70,000 Canadians have now declared they would like to see Pete Hoekstra out of a job, or at least out of his current one. An online petition launched last month is calling for the U.S. ambassador to be removed from his position and for the Canadian government to declare him persona non grata. The petition describes his conduct to be, quote, fundamentally incompatible with the role of a diplomat, unquote. It also says Mr. Hoekstra has normalized the Trump administration's threats to annex Canada. 11:16 Green Party leader Elizabeth May will present the petition to the House of Commons this fall. John Lawrence is a journalist and opinion writer who wrote an op-ed for the Toronto Star back in May titled Diplomats Serve an Important Role. Here's why it's time to declare this U.S. emissary persona non grata. We reached Mr. Lawrence in Toronto. 11:39 John, are you sure you didn't start this petition? 11:43 Not to my recollection. 11:46 You know, maybe I suggested it to Elizabeth Bay in my sleep. I'm not sure. 11:51 Okay, then have you at least signed it? 11:54 Yeah, I actually signed it this afternoon after I saw the reports. 11:59 I don't normally sign petitions because I'm a journalist, but I couldn't resist. 12:04 Well, we know that the person behind this petition is a woman from Calgary named Lee Walker. She declined an interview with us, but in an email statement, she said the amount of signatures on the petition really tells her that this isn't a fringe issue and that, quote, a lot of Canadians are uncomfortable with how Hoekstra has been repeating Trump talking points about our sovereignty and Canada as a whole, unquote. 12:28 From where you're sitting, do you think Prime Minister Mark Carney would consider removing Pete Hoekstra? Yeah. 12:34 I think it would be extremely unlikely because the first thing that Trump would do is throw Mark Wiseman out, Canada's ambassador to Washington. 12:44 And I'm sure that the prime minister wouldn't want that. And it would just stir things up. But, you know, as I've written before, I don't think there's any problem with having a public conversation in Canada about his suitability as the American ambassador here. 12:58 Well, that seems to be some of the point here. Lee Walker has written richly on her own blog about this, about wanting to send a message. If that's the purpose, do you think the US ambassador is receiving that message? 13:11 Oh, without question. Like he's a very online individual. And I think that the news about this petition has spread rapidly. 13:21 You know, when I signed it earlier in the afternoon, it was at 59,000. And now it's like rounding 75. So it's gained a lot of traction. I'm sure it's gotten back to him. 13:31 Why is it gaining traction, do you think? 13:34 because he's an incredibly undiplomatic diplomat. 13:37 I remember when he was confirmed and he was asked about the 51st state stuff and calling the prime minister governor. This is when Trudeau was still the prime minister. And he said, no, no, we're not going to deal with that. So I thought, okay, well, At least he's a straightforward person. But he's completely gotten into this whole habit of trolling Canada and, you know, speaking in pretty uninformed ways to the media, goading us, retweeting the president's 51st state stuff. 14:09 And I don't think that that's the job of an ambassador, to be honest. I think that's, you know, that's a troll. 14:14 I know you've said it's an unlikely move that he'd be removed, but let's imagine he was removed. If the prime minister took that step, wouldn't Hoekstra then be replaced by another Trump appointed person who may do the exact same thing? 14:30 Or he might be worse or she might be worse. Like, it wouldn't surprise me. The people who end up replacing fired cabinet ministers or fired secretaries in the Trump administration are often worse than their predecessors. So, I mean, this is a theoretical, intellectual, political exercise. It's not about what... 14:52 our prime minister is actually going to do. 14:55 But as I, you know, I think that the petition, the popularity, the media coverage, you know, it expresses the fact that Canadians are not happy about the way, you know, he's conducted himself here. And he is a guest of the Canadian government, right? I mean, the formality of being an ambassador is that you have to Go to the governor general or the prime minister. You have to present your papers, your credentials, and you have to be accepted. And you're accepted until you're declared persona non grata, and then you can be kicked out. 15:26 This is a right that's given to all heads of state under a treaty that was signed years ago. So, you know, he's a guest in our house, right? He should behave like guests do when or ought to do when they're invited in your home. 15:42 I want to look at the environment that this is happening in right now. The petition comes amid high stakes trade negotiations. And just today, sources told CBC News that Canada and the U.S. are not ready to make a tariff deal and that Canada is, quote unquote, unsatisfied with the latest offer from the United States. This is a very fraught time that we're in. And I wonder what kind of impact headlines like yours or the emergence of this petition could do, how they might risk disrupting what's already a very fragile conversation. 16:17 It's entirely possible that it will disrupt the negotiations or it won't. 16:23 You know, in my view, it's kind of a mugs game to try to game out what Trump is going to do next, what's going to set him off. None of us would have thought three weeks ago that wildfire smoke from the depths of the Canadian wilderness that crosses the American border becomes like a trade issue. And yet there it is, you know, he was threatening tariffs on our force management. 16:46 So it's, you know, you can't tell. I suspect that this did get back to the White House. Wouldn't surprise me if Trump made some comment about it to the press or in the Oval Office. You know, whether it gets into the negotiating room with Greer and with Dominic LeBlanc and, you know, our other negotiators, you know, I wouldn't hazard a guess. 17:07 It's not an entirely unprecedented thing for a diplomat to be expelled. This has happened in the past. But if we look at that, this has happened usually when there's been allegations of a criminal act. What would Pete Hoekstra have to do or say in order to force Prime Minister Mark Carney to remove him? 17:28 I think you'd have to go back to this talking point about the 51st state. 17:33 You know, it's kind of a different beast. It's not that he's corrupt. And it's not that people are upset about him because of what American policy is. It's just that he's acting like a blowhard and shows no real inclination to stop. Like, why is that part of his job? I don't get that at all. 17:53 Well, thank you very much for telling us about this part of it. I guess we'll see what happens next. 17:57 Okay, thanks very much for having me on. 18:00 John Lawrence is a journalist and opinion writer. We reached him in Toronto earlier today. We requested an interview with U.S. Ambassador Pete Hoekstra. His office declined. 18:17 When it comes to football, few things are more important than a well-fitting helmet. And helmets really work best when they are not holding venomous snakes. Recently, though, a high school football player in Arkansas found exactly that in his helmet almost a full hour into practice. He first noticed unusual movement against his scalp after warming up. And when he checked inside his helmet, he discovered what turned out to be a cottonmouth snake. 18:49 Only the second most venomous serpent in Arkansas. Ultimately, police officers used water to force the snake out of the headgear. And that moment is our sound of the day. 19:02 He's coming. 19:03 Just wait because he's going to move. There he is. 19:05 Amy, you're going to have to get ready. 19:08 Oh, he's coming. Watch out. His head's about to be at the top of the... 19:12 He said, hey, what's going on? What are we doing out here? Now, what are you going to do with him once you get him out? Just over there in the woods? 19:18 You're not going to pull him out? 19:23 Can you not get to him? There you go. Pull his ass out. 19:27 That's a cottonmouth snake being removed from an Arkansas high schooler's football helmet. It's our sound of the day. 19:47 The dodo has a bad rep. In the three and a half centuries since the flightless birds were wiped out, the word dodo has become synonymous with dim-witted. Presumably because they didn't have the good sense to flee when Dutch settlers landed on their native island of Mauritius. And within a human lifetime of their arrival, the slow-moving species was extinct. But now, researchers have studied the last few surviving dodo skulls and determined they may not have been quite as bird-brained as we believed. 20:21 Sarah Citrona is one of the lead researchers behind the study published in the Zoological Journal. We reached her in Lethbridge, Alberta. 20:30 Sarah, set the record straight. Based on your research, were dodo's dummies? 20:36 Apparently, no. There's been all these ideas about them being not exactly smart, being basically doomed to extinction. But our last research discovered that this is not really true at all, actually. They were probably at least as smart as a pigeon and a dove is today. 20:57 So a pigeon is smart. 20:59 Yeah, I would say they are actually very smart. You can take them and blindfold them and release them in a place that they've never seen. And they are actually able to navigate back home on their own. They can also learn new tasks. You can teach them how to press a lever or back on a button to get a treat. And they will remember how to do that. And they are actually able to recognize different human faces. So... 21:29 They're quite smart, actually. 21:31 When I was looking at your work, I could see you compared different kinds of brains, including the pigeon and the dodo. What did you learn about the dodo's cognitive abilities by studying their skulls? 21:43 So whenever you are looking at the brain, there are different parts and every part of the brain is doing something very specific, right? And there is a part that's called the telencephalon that is what is connected with how smart you are. So basically all the process of remembering things or solving problems, all that things happen in the telencephalon. 22:10 we basically were able to measure the size of this area in the brain in the dodo and compare how big it is in the dodo compared to all the other pigeons and doves that are still alive today. And what we saw was that the size of this area is exactly what you would expect it to be for a bird of that size. So that tells you that the dodo was not any inch number than the typical pigeon. 22:39 Well, where did the idea come from that they were stupid? 22:44 I think whenever you are evolving on an island and you lose the ability to fly, then there is another thing that you lose, which is the fear of predators. And this keeps happening over and over in all those islands where you don't have big mammals that are able to predate on you because they just don't reach this island. And so if you lose the ability to fly, fear something, you're going to also get more curious about it. 23:17 And if you have these sailors that are arriving, you are not scared of them, so you're going to approach them. And even when they start basically murdering the other member of your own species, you don't have that typical reaction of a prey animal that we as humans expect to see. And so I think that's where this idea of the dodo being dumb comes from. They just lack the fear of us. 23:44 That's so interesting because really while your work was about discovering something about dodos, you're sort of revealing something about human beings that if creatures don't react with fear or ferocity, we have a lot of difficulty understanding their intelligence. We assume that they're stupid. 24:00 I find that part really, really fascinating. Would you argue then that the dodo was more naive and inexperienced with humans rather than unintelligent? 24:10 Yes, yes, 100%. We tend to think about species, especially on island, as doomed to be extinct, while what's really happening is that we as humans are changing their environment And we are changing all the rules of the game. So these animals are not able to react fast enough. 24:32 But meanwhile, this idea has been so enduring. A lot of us grew up with stories of the dumb dodo who was too stupid, so stupid that they shouldn't even exist any longer. And you even see that in children's storybooks. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, you had the dumb dodo there. Why do you think the idea of the dodo who is oh so dumb held so much appeal for people over such a long period of time? 24:58 so i think that what's actually going on is that we as humans have this ability if we want to wash our hands about something we would say in italian so if we imagine that these animals are dumb enough and so they would eventually go extinct anyway then we don't really have to counter to keep ourselves accountable for their destiny, right? And this is probably just an easy solution to a problem that at the end of the day, we are actually causing and we just don't want to really deal with it, I guess. 25:34 What a humbling lesson you're teaching us. Meanwhile, your research is making headlines around the world. What are you hoping that people might learn as they question or are forced to question what they thought they knew about the dodo? 25:49 I would really, really hope that this helps us to actually think about animals that are at the risk of extinction today, and there are so many, and realize that these animals deserve and earn their space in the planet along us, and we can't keep acting on the planet as if it wasn't also theirs. 26:15 They are smart. They are capable of interacting with each other. They perceive the environment in their own way, which is often also very different from how we as humans are perceiving it. And that's, I think, enough for them to be earned to, you know, having their own space. 26:34 You've certainly given us a lot to think about. Sarah, thank you so much. 26:38 Thanks to you for hosting me. 26:40 Sarah Citrona is a PhD candidate at the University of Lethbridge. We reached her there. 27:00 We're going to take a short break now. When we return, rescue efforts continue in Colombia after a massive earthquake on Monday. We hear from a man who's dealing with the aftermath in one of the hardest hit cities. 27:13 And bogged down, a trio looking for a leisurely inner tube float down a Michigan river, end up way off course and lost for days in marshes. One of the rescuers describes what it took to save them. Stay tuned. I'm Saroja Qualo, and I'm Talia Schlanger. 27:43 All your favorite CBC Podcasts are now available on YouTube. The best in award-winning true crime investigations, hilarious comedies, vibrant pop culture conversations, and even more audio series are all available on CBC Podcasts' YouTube channel. You'll also find exclusive video first episodes, YouTube shorts, and behind-the-scenes content from our hosts and producers that you can't find anywhere else. So if YouTube is your go-to source for podcasts, just search CBC Podcasts and hit subscribe, and you'll never miss the latest updates. 28:14 In Colombia tonight, rescuers are frantically digging through the rubble in search for survivors of Monday's earthquake. As you've been hearing on the news, parts of western Colombia lie in ruins after the 7.4 magnitude quake hit the country, flattening buildings and damaging roads and infrastructure. The death toll has already topped 250 and will likely climb as rescue efforts continue. William Andreas Luna lives in Cali, one of the hardest hit cities. That's where we reached him. 28:46 William, can you describe what the destruction looks like in Cali right now? 28:50 There are some buildings that completely collapsed. Others suffered severe damage and can no longer be inhabited. Some people lost family members while others lost their homes. 29:06 How are you doing? I'm okay. 29:09 Fortunately, my family and I are doing well and we are able to help others. I have a daughter, which is 11 years old. 29:21 So she has a friend. They lost their home. So we have that family here. 29:28 And how has that been? 29:29 It's been good, so they are trying to understand what the government aid is going to come in order to try to get that aid for now. 29:39 By basic things that we, in a normal day, we don't understand that it's important to have. You have to be grateful. 29:52 William, I completely understand what you're saying. All the little things that we take for granted every day suddenly become so important when everything could be lost. How did you help other people? 30:01 I was the last two days in some emergency place in a building that completely collapsed by helping out in removing debris. 30:19 I understand that you were actually on vacation when the earthquake happened. 30:25 No, as a matter of fact, I'm going back to my work today. I was planning to spend my life two days of vacation doing absolutely nothing. But when I went to see the situation, I realized that people needed help removing the pride to try to rescue survivors. I decided to stay and come back the next day to continue helping. So it was very shocking, but I think it was just my part. 30:57 When I arrived to the place, it was very sad because I saw... 31:11 People trying to remove debris in order to try to rescue people. If my family was there, what I should do or what I would like to other people do for me. So I decided to stay there. 31:31 So you're there digging people out of the debris. Did you actually see people come out from under these buildings? 31:38 Unfortunately, the people that was died in that place. While I was there, we don't rescue survivors, just died persons. 31:54 I'm so sorry that you experienced that. I understand that the rescue is continuing now and that there's still hope that people who are trapped will be rescued. What's the mood like in Cali right now? 32:06 I think that right now they need the space for doing their work. Right now, what we have to do is trying to help by donating food. 32:19 Most of the people here in Cali, we know something that lost their home. So we can help maybe by giving our homes for what they spent. the night while they're trying to figure out what they are going to do. 32:39 So the rescue workers are asking you to back off a little bit, the ways that you can provide support now, to provide food, to make donations, to provide shelter, which you've already been doing in your home. What challenges are the survivors facing right now, William? 32:57 I think that is to find the way to recover their lives right now, to find a place for spending the night. That's very important. And how they are going to recover their home there. 33:17 Because... 33:19 Most people lost everything. We know a family that their building where they used to live can no longer be inhabited, so they can't return to their home. 33:35 William, am I right that some of the people who've been affected don't have a lot of money, so that recovery is going to be even more difficult? 33:44 Yeah, I think that the government have some plans in these cases, but that is important to those people that they understand what is the way to obtain that help. Some people don't have even internet. So how the government is going to reach out for those persons and give the correct aid to that people is a challenge. 34:13 There's been a political change very recently, right before the earthquake. President El Belardo de la Espriella came into office just this past weekend. And you're talking about some of the kind of support that the government needs to provide. He says he's going to provide financial support for people who lost their homes. He ordered the housing ministry to pause household bill payments. What do you think about that response so far? 34:41 I think this is the correct response. But while that response comes, we, the people that don't suffer that much, we need to help them. While that help from government or that aid from government comes to them. 35:01 Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today and be safe. 35:05 Okay, thank you. Thank you. 35:08 William Andres Luna lives in Cali, Colombia. That's where we reached him earlier today. 35:34 The sound all search and rescue teams desperately hope to hear. A sign of life. Last week, Michiganders Jasmine Hawk and Sarah Vida and Ms. Vida's nine-year-old son, Caden, set out on the Muskegon River for a day of leisurely summer fun. But mere hours later, what was supposed to be a harmless tubing trip turned into a fight for survival. In the end, they were missing for three days before being found, miles away from where they started. Anna Cullen is a conservation officer who helped rescue the trio. 36:08 We reached her in Muskegon, Michigan. 36:11 Anna, how are Jasmine, Sarah, and Kayden doing right now? 36:16 Well, actually, I just got off the phone with Jasmine not too long ago. She seems in really good spirits. I know she's still having some issues with her injuries, and I think these last few days have been really kind of chaotic for her, which is very understandable. We went to go see Sarah and Caden in the hospital the day after, and they were doing really well. Still getting some care from the hospital, but like I said, very good spirits, and really good attitudes, you know, considering what they'd been through. 36:48 Yeah, it's such a relief for everyone. Maybe we could rewind for a moment, go back to Tuesday of last week when they set off on the Muskegon River. What happened? 36:59 We were told that they left the Maple Island boat launch on the Muskegon River around four o'clock Tuesday afternoon. 37:08 Started floating downriver. Now, the equipment that they had wasn't necessarily made for river tubing, more so for like a pool at one's house. 37:20 Two out of the three tubes popped. 37:23 They floated into this log jam. 37:26 I think from there, since it was dark, they went into the woods. 37:29 You know, it is so hard to, you know, put yourself in their shoes and that panic, you know, that they must have felt. So I think they went into the woods to be in a more safe space and they ended up getting turned around from there. 37:43 You were on that search for three days. Can you describe what sort of terrain they were dealing with and you as rescuers were up against? 37:51 As a whole, the Muskegon State game area, there's a lot going on. So not only does the river kind of cut it in half, but all of the land there is very low land, marsh, high vegetation, almost impossible to navigate through if you're not familiar with the area. And even if you are, it is very easy to get turned around. So when you don't have a point of reference, a tree to walk to, you can't see anything, it's really easy just to kind of go the wrong direction. 38:24 And so the switchgrass in there, which just grabs at your skin and just cuts you, it's very unforgiving. And the stinging nettles were the worst I've ever seen them. 38:38 And they just burn your skin and you're just on fire. But you got to keep going. So that was what they were dealing with. And all they had on were bathing suits. So you can imagine what their feet felt like, what their skin felt like, and not only their mindset. So A plus to them for some persistence. 39:00 And they're wanting to survive. 39:04 So this was going on for days. How confident were you that you'd find them alive? 39:08 According to our statistics in our training, they had less than a 10% chance of being found alive. And to be completely transparent, we did not expect to find them alive. 39:22 That is a really grim picture to be searching through the wilderness with. What kind of clues did you follow to lead you to the right place where you would eventually find them? 39:32 So like I said, the vegetation was pretty high. And luckily for us, that marshy terrain really helps with man tracking. So Officer Wright and the Michigan State Police, we were able to see those footprints in the marsh and say, okay, that is a little boy's footprint or a juvenile's footprint. 39:54 And soon we were able to get some really, really good tracks and And be confident to say, like, OK, there's something out here. Someone's out here. We think these are our people. 40:06 And then it turned out to be right. Tell me about the moment when you realized they were alive. 40:11 Shock. It was like a huge weight lifted off of our shoulders. And honestly, it was a lot of disbelief because like I said, we just did not expect a positive outcome. And when we saw them, you know, waving their hands and even hearing them through the woods, that was so reassuring to us and really hard to process as a first responder. Yeah. 40:37 So they survive against the odds and you're looking at them three days on their own in this wilderness that they don't know. What kind of shape were they in? 40:47 So Jasmine, she really struggled to stand severe dehydration for all three. Still able to talk. The boy was in phenomenal spirits. He was telling us everything that he was going to eat and drink when he got home, between the root beer and the donuts and the pizza. He was just a chatterbox, which was so refreshing. 41:09 And Jasmine, she was pretty shaky. They were completely covered head to toe. 41:16 and scratches and bug bites and poison ivy. And their feet from moving around in that really aggressive grass and the sticks and everything, their feet were completely cut open. 41:29 And you could tell some infections were starting to set in, especially for Sarah. So we wanted to get them help as soon as we could. 41:38 What were they eating while they were out there? Was there anything to eat at all? 41:43 So we asked that and they told us that they were eating lily pad flowers. 41:49 So like those white flowers that grow on lily pads and some tree bark. Allegedly, they did have some protein bars, but they gave those to the little boy. So... 41:59 There are so many search and rescue stories, including your own, as you've described, that really don't end this happily, especially as it becomes a days upon days search. How are you going to remember this particular incident? 42:15 Oh, man, I hope that image of... 42:19 that little boy and those, I hope that is always ingrained in my mind because that's, it's priceless. 42:31 these are the happy endings that stick with you and that make the hard times really worth it. 42:37 At one point, I know on the body cam footage, I was actually really embarrassed when they aired it because I was so happy that it's almost kind of overwhelming. Like the, the happiness kind of just fills you up and you just start crying. 42:52 And I was hugging my partner, Cameron and, And I'm like, oh my God, we did it. Like we did it. We found them. Like there was no chance, but we did it. And I think that's what I'm going to remember is that just seeing them, seeing their disbelief, our disbelief, and like sharing that moment together is so priceless. 43:14 It's an unbelievable story and what a rare outcome. Thank you so much for telling us about it, Anna. 43:20 Yeah, no problem. Thanks for letting me chat about it. 43:24 Anna Cullen is a conservation officer with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. We reached her in Muskegon, Michigan. 43:39 You've been listening to the As It Happens podcast. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio 1, following your world tonight. 43:46 You can also listen to the show online at cbc.ca slash AIH or on the CBC Listen app. Thanks for listening. I'm Saroja Coelho. And I'm Talia Schlanger. 44:14 For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.